posted March 04, 2003 08:40 PM            

Of course these statistics tell us nothing about bookstore sales.

I have three topics I'd like to discuss.

1. A lot of people say that floppies are dead, or near dead. However, the top 200 comics routinely sell more than 5,000 copies. Few collections break the 5,000 barrier. Most are from the usual suspects: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men.

2. We have had rather heated discussions about the collections appearing immediately after the floppies. So, I looked at Origin:

Issue 6, Jan 2002, 166,997
Hardcover, Feb 2002, 11,641
TPB, Nov 2002, 12,387

The mini sold rougly ten times as many copies as either collection. I didn't buy any version of Origin. However, it seems likely to me that at least 10,000 of the 166,997 who bought issue 6 are really ticked that they could have waited just one month and bought the hardcover. If I'm right, hardcover sales would have doubled.

3. A few people have suggested that collections will save series from cancellation. Here are the numbers from one of my personal favorites, Doom Patrol
Issue 1: 30,674
2: 24,812
3: 23,224
4: 21,253
5: 20,076
6: 19,494
7: 19,098
8: 18,242
9: 17,522
10: 16,991
11: 16,480
12: 15,736
13: 15,455
14: 14,811
15: 14,552
16: 14,117
17: 13,660
18: 13,119

Based on the sales of other trades, I estimate that a Doom Patrol trade would have been in the 2,000 area.

posted March 04, 2003 08:51 PM               

I'm frankly too lazy to do the research, but I'd guess that there are very few monthly national magazines with circulations as low as 20,000. (I'm not considering sf and mystery fiction magazines here, since both fields have been moribund for decades) I don't think there's any doubt that comics as magazines are, in general, doing badly and that this has been the trend for years.

posted March 04, 2003 09:32 PM               

Those number reflect the increased orders due to the incentives. And I believe those same incentives applied to Marvel's initial foray into the HC market.

I don't know specifically what to compare it to, but possibly Cage or one of the later HC Marvel produced.

posted March 05, 2003 10:07 AM               

Unfortunetly, I do believe that it is hurting the regular comic market (the "floppies", I guess). Doom Patrol is a perfect example. Because so many companies (especially Marvel) cater so much to the bookstore market, running from the direct market like rats fleeing a sinking ship, that readers have been trained to expect a TPB of just about anything and everything. Why bother reading the stories monthly, they decide, when I can get the complete story in TPB form just weeks after the end of each story arc. So they abstain from buying the monthlies. Doom Patrol's sales plumet. Readers decide that they'd rather read the collection all at once, instead of in a serialized fashion (which, IMO, is part of what makes comics unique, but that's just my opinion). So they wait for the TPB. I've heard a lot of people say that about Doom Patrol. Of course, sales of the monthly indicate to DC that no one would be interested in the TPB, it never gets made, people hold out longer, sales dip more, book gets canned, still no TPB. Doom Patrol is just an extreme example of an attitude that is killing comic books.

posted March 05, 2003 07:58 PM               

The Magazine Market reflects the comic market. Magazines that sell 200,000 copies today are considered a success. I read an article about it a few years ago. They are practically giving prescriptions away, I mean ten dollars for a year of a weekly magazine (I wish DC would do that.)
There aren't "magazine stores" that collect every isssue of Time, ala the direct comic market.

Think about it, stuff like National Geographic and the Smithsonian are now available at Walmart.

There are too many magazines, books, and comics to go around for too few readers. I can't remember the last time I bought a book for full price (I recently bought "Jack Cole and Plastic-Man" for seven dollars, not twenty.

But then again, some hallmark cards cost seven to ten dollars and people happily buy them, so who knows.

I think comics and magazine will outlast the tradepaperbacks because they've been around so much longer, and they are considered to be disposable entertainment by many.

posted March 05, 2003 10:26 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:
...Hardcovers have only gone up about 800% or 20....

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posted March 06, 2003 01:47 AM               

I never really realized how bad comic sales were (I'm happily involved in my own little world I guess) until I started posting on these boards about two years ago. I remember reading some article stating that a book was selling 40, 000 and was going to be cancelled. I was shocked.

Then I looked at the books I was collecting (All DCs) only one was over 40,000. Of course now they are selling at half that! I did a little research at the time, and that is when I found out about all periodicals in general.

Good point about the paperbacks. I work in retail, and about all we sell are the Archie digests ($2.19), and only as impulse items. I never see a person come in and buy one every month, like I used to when I was a kid.

Though I'm not as pessimistic as you, I wonder how much I'll be willing to spend on books, five, six dollars? I can barely justify buying ALTER_EGO for six, or COMIC BOOK ARTIST for seven. Yet even they all black and white, take a few hours to read.

Look on the bright side James, if DC does stop publishing comics, we'll be able to save alot of money.

posted March 06, 2003 11:59 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:
I don't have a conclusion or a plan or a suggested approach. I think floppies are doomed.

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All for the best really. I think forcing comic companies to switch to an OGN-only method of production is a necessary growth that the industry needs. In the next ten years, more and more comics will be read by people outside the industry (with no previous exposure mind you) who get them as OGNs or trades from bookstores. Why companies aren't more actively involved in preparing for this wave baffles me.

I think that floppies are anachronisms and are put out mainly to satisfy all the old-ass fans/geeks/nerds/whatever who've been reading the same **** from the same people forever. This industry needs to EVOLVE.

posted March 06, 2003 05:59 PM               

Well, actually, it's just ONE of many things that comics are now,and have been for quite a while.

Like I said above, the idea that the monthly format is dead is what is killing the industry.

I'd suggest that it's more likely to be nawwow conceptions of what comics are and aren't that has it in trouble.

Switchin to only a Graphic Novel industry is limiting creatively and will do more to drive people away from the genre than anything since the speculators crash.

An exclusive bookstore OGN industry would be much more limited in the ammount of stories they'd be able to tell at any one time. Despite it's conventions, the serial format is much freer. You have more space to work with. You can build characters or stories over time.

I'm not suggesting andI don't think anyone else is suggesting that the floppy format should deliberately be done away with. I think it's dying a very long, slow natural death.

If you refuse to buy monthlies then I'm sorry but you are part of the problem.

Excuse me? I'm culpable because I don't personally want to collect a specific format any more? I think you need to reexamine that logic.

The bookstore graphic novel market is not the last chance of the comic industry. It's slowly killing the direct market which is only bad for comic fans by narrowing the field, reducing diversity, fracturing comic fandom and in the end reducing comics to impulse items instead of a close knit creative community.

posted March 06, 2003 06:20 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:

I'd suggest that it's more likely to be nawwow conceptions of what comics are

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That's "narrow".
Not "nawwow."

posted March 07, 2003 06:40 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by CMCINTYRE3600:
Readers decide that they'd rather read the collection all at once, instead of in a serialized fashion (which, IMO, is part of what makes comics unique, but that's just my opinion). So they wait for the TPB. I've heard a lot of people say that about Doom Patrol. Of course, sales of the monthly indicate to DC that no one would be interested in the TPB, it never gets made, people hold out longer, sales dip more, book gets canned, still no TPB. Doom Patrol is just an extreme example of an attitude that is killing comic books.

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I'm not sure that the TPB mentality sunk DP. Everything is fairly proportional. Sales of Y and Fables are still going up, yet there's a significant amount of people waiting on the trades for those respective books.

Sales went the opposite direction on DP because it wasn't a real strong concept and failed to keep many of the readers that tried it in "floppy" form (dcexplosion is right about this term). And if there were people waiting on a DP trade, they're probably misinformed about how trades are issued. If they think that just because Daredevil and JLA are always in trades means that DP (not expected to be a big seller) would get one, they aren't paying attention.

posted March 07, 2003 09:15 PM               

Yeah, I get a kick when the box of new crap shows up on my doorstep, but not as much as I used to, and certainly not as much as when I find an old Batman or Detective that I don't have. I wouldn't be heartbroken if monthlies went away, but I might be pickier buying new titles. It's easier and cheaper to throw a $2.50 magazine on the counter than a $15 book. I'd probably just spend more money on old stuff.

I think comics as a medium need to have room to breath in many formats : floppies, trades and hardcovers, comic strips, online, etc. Right now, comics the medium are captive to people who can only think of a few ways to market them. A monthly title might be the best format for some ideas, but a yearly trade might be the best for another. Don't hold your breath waiting for one of the big companies to experiment. As it stands, they schedule by format ("We need 2 original hardcovers for Q2 2004!") and then cram in whatever they can get their hands on.

On the topic of sales : I wonder how tpb's would sell if they completely replaced the floppies. Example : suppose DC limited JLA to two trades per year of all-original material. I think those would sell better than the reprint trades, especially if DC worked hard to make sure we got two KICK-ASS JLA stories, instead of a watered-down monthly and enough prestige "specials" to fill a quarter bin. I'd be happy to have JLA only twice per year, if every issue was as good as Morrison's Earth 2 or Waid's Tower of Babel.

I wouldn't take a year's worth of current Superman comics if they were free, but if DC released a quarterly trade-sized Superman comic by KICK ASS creators (Moore, Morrison, Waid-when-he's-good, Ennis, along with comparable art), I would not miss it, even if it cost a few bucks more than comparable floppies or tpb collections. And, BTW, screw continuity. I don't read Superman comics for Perry White's cancer treatments, but I would happily pay good money for a rousing Superman Juggles the Planets yarn.

Just my two cents.

posted March 07, 2003 10:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DaBubba:

On the topic of sales : I wonder how tpb's would sell if they completely replaced the floppies. Example : suppose DC limited JLA to two trades per year of all-original material. I think those would sell better than the reprint trades, especially if DC worked hard to make sure we got two KICK-ASS JLA stories, instead of a watered-down monthly and enough prestige "specials" to fill a quarter bin.

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Sure, new material in trades would sell better than reprint stuff.

If the monthlies were phased out, though, the local comic shop would have to sacrifice its weekly or near-weekly clientele for people that would come in once a month, or every few months. I don't think they could afford this, as rent and utilities are paid monthly, not every few months. And I'd buy my stuff online because of the mark downs.

Thus, the big titles, like JLA, Spider-Man, etc., would probably need a $10 (optimistically) trade a month to make it work. But that requires rotating creators, so there's a watering-down effect right there. And would a lot of people be able to afford multiple trades a month?

posted March 08, 2003 08:25 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Rusty Shackleford:
Sure, new material in trades would sell better than reprint stuff.

If the monthlies were phased out, though, the local comic shop would have to sacrifice its weekly or near-weekly clientele for people that would come in once a month, or every few months. I don't think they could afford this, as rent and utilities are paid monthly, not every few months. And I'd buy my stuff online because of the mark downs.

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Just a couple of quickie points for discussion :

Many stores are already devoting less and less space to comics, in favor of items like toys, cards, games, t-shirts, etc.

I get my comics mail order from a comic shop in Massachusetts, because the shops in the Daytona Beach area suck and because my shop gives me a nice discount. This gives me an incentine to NOT shop online. Retailers need to compete or die, whether that means customer service, discounts, having an online store, whatever.

I've worked for a couple of comics stores and I've learned to question the business model that relies on one day's receipts to account for a majority of the week's sales intake. Stores that flourish do not rely on the Wednesday geek crowd to maintain their business. If 90% of your business comes in on Wednesday and Thursday, why be open the rest of the week?

I only have anecdotal evidence, but stores that have moved to a bookstore model are doing much better than traditional comics shops. They still sell floppies, just like Barnes and Noble sells magazines, but they treat comics like books to be read, not collectibles to be stuffed in a bag. They stock companies like Fantagraphics, AIT, Drawn and Quarterly, etc. and don't rely on the Hulk vs. Superman crowd.

To me, there are two kinds of comics shops : the old school, tons of back issues, find that elusive comic and get your weekly fix shop and the new school, comics are an art form, look at the nice rows of hardcover and paperback books, no we don't sell Magic cards shop.

In between, there are the guys living Wednesday to Wednesday, who don't talk to their customers when they come in, who don't stock back issues older than six months, and who won't special order something out of Previews that's not on their regular buy list. These are the guys that rely on the floppy schedule. If the floppies went away, these shops could go with them. Pizza Hut is always hiring.

posted March 08, 2003 04:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:

...there are still way too many shops that limit their prospective clientele by bad lighting, dirt and mess, injudicious display of violent images or t&a posters. What girl or woman--what parent?--would want to frequent most comic shops even now?

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Amen. Some comics shops gross me out, and I've been in some seedy porn stores (details in a different forum...)

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:

In the early days, the best comic shops were usually (always with exceptions) adjuncts of other businesses--book shops specializing in science fiction or used bookstores, gaming stores (also a field in its infancy then), video and movie shops (again, also something new in the '70s). Diversification has been with us from the beginning, among the smarter retailers.

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I didn't mean to slam diversity in product, though in retrospect maybe it sounded that way. Your post helps me clarify my point, though. A diverse shop that is run like a business (not a personal hobby) and welcomes customers (not just the Wednesday regulars) will not need to rely on floppies and Wednesday traffic to be successful.

My original point was that there's no reason a comic shop couldn't make trades and hardcovers a good percentage of overall sales, replacing the diminishing sales numbers of the floppies. If I owned a retail business of any kind, I would be greatly concerned if the vast majority of my business was provided by the same, relatively small group of people on the same day of the week.

It's just silly than an entire industry is wedded to this one-day-a-week sales model. I mean, what if comics came out on Tuesday and Friday instead of Wednesday? Could stores double their foot traffic? What if DC reduced their monthly titles by half and tripled the number of original trades and hardcovers? Maybe instead of launching the nth version of Doom Patrol in two years, DC could just produce an OGN. I'm really looking forward to the Kyle Baker Plastic Man HC. I'm very excited about Warren Ellis' and Colleen Doran's Orbiter, which I hope is a huge smash. I'd rather see DC pump resources into that kind of product instead of into something like HERO (just to pick on a newbie floppie).